Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Jamie Wheal's avatar

(cont'd from prior comment post)

As for the helicopter incident, I would want to learn the facts before publishing that story – so that I could at least include what I (perhaps naively?) believe were extenuating circumstances. The building may have had civilians on the roof, but it was also likely a legitimate military target. I am not justifying the strike, but just raising the question of why you included it (and likely not in its entirety). Same with the undercover military squads. Every military in the world attempts to infiltrate the enemy with undercover units posing as locals. In Israel, they exist in order to make arrests or to kill terrorists in the process of preparing attacks, not to go after and kill political enemies.

If you have not seen the drama series, “Fauda,” that does a decent job at exploring the nuance and moral quandaries inherent here, I highly recommend it. Bottom line, the way you wrote this feels to me more emotional than the rest of the article and I think you are too quick to call these extra-judicial “death squads” and hold them in such clear contempt.

A note about your discussion of the different forms of anti-semitism. I very much appreciate you asking for people to stop conflating anti-Semitism with anti-Netanyahu or his policies. It would be wonderful if they did stop. But, in practical terms, anti-Semitism has always, and will likely continue to exist on both sides of the left-right/liberal-conservative spectrum. The differences have no meaning, because in my view, right and left political extremes do not exist on a linear plane. Rather, at their most extreme, they meet at the two ends of a circle to form an insidious alliance of intolerance and violence – inevitably seizing on Jews as a scapegoat for whatever ills they see themselves as victims of (e.g. Nazi Germany).

In other words, as a Jew, I don’t care why they hate me. I fear both those who see me as a white-elite occupier and as a Christ-killer. With all that said – I absolutely agree that it is wrong for those who use arguments against anti-Semitism to justify this Israeli government’s policies.

A couple more points. I completely agree with and appreciate your statement that we can both, “have supported precision strikes to eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah, and still draw a line 18 months later at the wholesale devastation, blockades and humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the West Bank.”

With that, I think it is important to recognize that from Israel’s perspective, the world did not, as you argue, stand with us for a few months after October 7th and is only now turning on us. From our point of view, the world turned against us as soon as October 8th, long before our troops went into Gaza. Yes, we saw some sympathy and diplomatic room to manoeuver from several governments, but what the typical Israeli saw was the immediate reaction on social media and on college campuses condemning us. Rallies calling to “Free Palestine” and “From the River to the Sea” in London and New York. UN leaders had to put the attack “in context.” West Bank Palestinians celebrated in the streets and polling showed their overwhelming support of the attacks. South Africa filed its formal complaint of “genocide” to the ICJ in December 2023, not 18 months after the war began.

It is important to understand that the Israeli mentality, especially following October 7th, has been one of living in fear under existential threat. We have a very strong tradition of political protest, as demonstrated in the 10 months prior to October 7th. Yet, none of us were protesting the war in its first year because we mostly saw it as justified – not for revenge as you imply in the article, but in order to root out the perpetrators so that they will not be able to do it again. We recognize the dilemma of fighting an urban war against a guerilla enemy that actively tries to put its own civilians in harm’s way. But because of our own fear, it became easier to look the other way at Palestinian civilian suffering.

And we still largely believe that the culpability for those civilian deaths is on Hamas and not us. I still wish for the death of every single member of Hamas or IPJ who took part in the October 7 attack. I just prioritize diplomacy and getting our hostages back over continuing the war at this point. And I certainly hope we can attain the expulsion of the Hamas leadership from Gaza as part of any end-result.

Now, of course, many of us are outraged at this government and at Netanyahu – even those who supported them before the war. We see that Bibi needs to keep this war going – not, primarily because it is keeping him out of prison as you claim, but because at its conclusion, there will be no way for him to prevent a formal commission of inquiry into the events of October 7th. That commission will inevitably find him responsible and force his government to fall. Bibi sees himself in historic terms, as a great leader of the Jewish People and the Jewish State. He needs to protect his legacy at all costs. Unfortunately, both we Israelis and the Palestinians are paying the price.

Hoping that this all lands with you as I intend it, with an open heart and with deep thought about issues intimately relevant and personal. As I wrote, I agree with your overall premise and appreciate you taking a stab at this incredibly complex set of problems. Ultimately, I am doing what I can to heed your call to “do better” and hope everyone else who reads your piece will as well. It is no easy task, and not in anyone’s comfort zone, but if I have learned anything in my 58 years, it is that the things really worth doing make us uncomfortable.

If you have the time, I would love to hear your thoughts in response.

Best,

Evan"

Expand full comment
Jamie Wheal's avatar

The whole time I was writing this, was thinking of an American friend who now lives in Israel and consider himself a "Progressive Zionist." I sent him a pre-pub draft and asked for his comments. Feel like they were such a well-argued counterpoint to my original piece that it would be worth a read for anyone interested in this broader topic and/or who felt my essay missed or elided certain critical points.

"Given that your viewpoint on, and articulation of history and current events almost always resonate with me, I was not surprised to completely agree with the overall sentiment of your article. In my understanding, the gist of your argument is to point out the need to move away from the extremes and find a better way for settling our disagreements, no matter how deeply rooted or justified we feel we are.

Empathy for the “other”, as a protagonist, and for both sides if you are an outside observer or mediator, are always critical in understanding and eventually helping to resolve any conflict. And clearly, a giant missing piece in our conflict is the need to humanize the “other,” to recognize their suffering and point of view and acknowledge where our own side is culpable. So, as difficult as it is to acknowledge where my “side” has gone way off the deep-end in creating completely unjustified suffering, I appreciate that the documentary and your article both do those things. Thank you. I hope that your article will motivate many people to “do better.”

With that said, I would suggest several nuanced changes.

Your introduction describing the suffering and humiliation the Palestinians have faced over the years at the hands of Israeli settlers (and the army) seems to be, at least in part, in order to make the point that this is the reason for the radicalization of the Palestinians. It is “inevitable” you say, that there is terror and that Hamas did what it did because of Palestinian suffering. I would point out, however that the rejectionism and radicalization of the Arabs and Palestinians pre-dates any suffering they may have faced at Israeli hands. There was Arab terror long before Israel “occupied” the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. An example of this pre-dates by almost 20 years the creation of the state itself. This is the massacre in 1929 of the Jews of Hebron, a city in the heart of the West Bank, whose families had been living there peacefully for millennia.

And I am not bringing this up to compare or “one-up” the suffering of one side over the other. I simply use this as an example for why I see the conclusion you draw in your introduction as problematic. And this does not even touch upon the longer conversation necessary to get into the vast differences between grievance-based violence/terror and the religiously-motivated, messianic-based terror of Hamas… Not to mention how the fact that Hebron was a Jewish city before 1929, but free of Jews from then until 1967, demonstrates how, as you correctly point out, the situation and history is very complex indeed.

I also think the way you set up the very premise of what I see as your main argument calling for a middle ground between extremes, as problematic. You equate “anti-Semitic pro terrorism” and “patriotic pro-Zionism”. Your readers may conclude or infer from this that being a patriotic pro-Zionist, (as I consider myself, by the way), is the flip side, and “just as bad” as being an anti-Semitic supporter of terrorism. As you acknowledge a few sentences later, one can criticize Bibi and his policies while still accepting Jewish national rights. Why not put “radical” or “right-wing Israeli settler” on the other side of that equation so that “Zionism” can still be accepted as a normal, mainstream movement of Jewish national rights just like any other national right’s movement, including Palestinian?

Within your list of “hopefully non-controversial facts”, you include, “You can unequivocally support the right to a Jewish state (soft Zionism) while rejecting plans to expel all non-Jews from the region (hard Zionism).” I personally have never heard the terms “soft” and “hard” Zionism, but I think “radical Zionist” is much more accurate and descriptive than “hard Zionist”. As you know, about 22% of Israel’s population (not the West Bank and Gaza) are non-Jewish, full citizens of Israel – with representation in Parliament and even on the supreme court. Yes, there is still racism and yes, there are fringe, radical voices calling for expelling even them, but at least for now, those voices remain on the fringe of Israeli society.

As for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, you would be correct in claiming that more Israelis would be in favor of expelling them – and that sentiment gained a much larger following because of the attacks of October 7th and the support the West Bank Palestinians expressed for them.

And this brings me to a broader point about your article. While your list of hopefully non-controversial facts (all of which I agree with – with the added nuance I describe above), calls for empathy and reasoned consideration from both sides, much of the remainder of your article seems to highlight the wrongheaded thinking and actions of one side – the radical settler movement and the Netanyahu government’s policies in fighting the war in Gaza, not to mention the story of the helicopter pilot and the undercover units being treated with MDMA. Perhaps it is because we Israelis are seemingly in a position of power – certainly in comparison to Palestinians – and thus it is only natural to rail against that side more vociferously.

But, while Daniella Weiss’ views are abhorrent, they are also the fringe of the fringe. There are not many Jews who claim that the Land of Israel stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile. So what is the point of quoting her so extensively? We can easily find just as many Palestinian voices (and I am sure a higher percentage of their population) supporting their own rejectionist version of “God gave this to us first and therefore…” Not to mention, the entire liberal world (from mainstream media to college campuses) seemingly calling for or supporting those who do call for a “Free Palestine - From the River to the Sea.” I assume you know this, but just in case, I and every Israeli I know hears that phrase as a call for wholesale extermination of the Jews in Israel.

(cont'd)

Expand full comment
20 more comments...

No posts